Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. thanks for your time, greg. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. That should be the only real factor considered. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. Are there exceptions? Then get ready for a gunfight. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. If a 9mm bullet barely misses the heart or aorta of an adversary, but the heart or aorta of that same person is creased by the slightly larger .40 or .45 caliber round, it can be said with conviction that bullet diameter, expanding or not, really does matter. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. When the. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. Thats right George. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. Repeat over and over, and keep doing so even after proficiency is achieved. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. His logic was that if there ever were a scene where they got into a firefight and one deputy ran out of ammo any of the others could provide him with one of their spare mags. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. Okay all handgun are garbage. Reality. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. Just bless his little Prsident heart. Beats. Temporary cavity is often grossly overrated as a wounding factor, but has historically been one of the primary methods for measuring effectiveness. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly Against bad guys though, gimme a 45 auto. and manufacturers. Opinions all ! What, is that like an every day occurrence? I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. If you want to test that theory in a real world environment. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Very smart Chris ! Its a High Point .40S&W. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. View our Terms of Service And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. The ambulance took him away. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. very obvious. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. The victim died immediately. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Thank you. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. I am sorry for your incounter. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Why do I say that? If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. WebBlack Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use.Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. I have yet to see this. Glad you are doing well. Bullet was military Ball. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. Among other things, this I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. It is also a logistics factor 45 is just one more different ammo to resupply. His chest was gurgling and slurping. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. Before he did this there was almost as many different firearms within the department as deputies. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. Theres also the reaction of a surprise. The worse thing in a gunfight is running out of ammo, lol If you shoot well it shouldnt make a difference, especially with todays ammo types. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. The debate isnt settled. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el Type of ammo, stopping power, number of shots, shot placement, kick back, does the gun fit your hand, and whether your cheap crappy gun jams on you these are all part of the equation. But thats me. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. We look forward to serving you. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Model. Because its difficult to pack enough explosive powder into a cartridge thats supposed to fit within the shooters pistol grip, handgun designers typically try to increase firepower by sticking a bigger piece of metal on the end of a round. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. You might be able to talk to the first guy. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. You are up close and personal with this guy. Your tax-deductible donation will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. Unless they needed concealablity. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. The objective of this study was to construct a You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. There ya go compromise just carry both. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. No lab test can tell you how likely a round is to drop an assailant, but they can tell you how destructive a round is upon impact, which is the best metric youre going to get. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. Because size is king? A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. F=MA is F=MA. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. Thanks for your comment! So any caliber is better than none. I am a classic ). Lee reloading gear. What it really boils down to is budget, not protection. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. You may as well go off and say Ill just take a Judge and shoot .410 buckshot, or .45 long colt if you are trying to inflict the most damage. One thing to note is that for more most applications the military is restricted to FMJ loads. Good job! I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. Have you ever saw the wound track from a .230 hst. Along that line of thought, I bought my tiny little 24 year old niece a pistol when she moved to Kansas by herself. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! CHEERS. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Train! Fire Rate: 240 I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Thats not the kind of performance Im looking for. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. It doesnt get more damaging that that. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the